I made the mistake of working comics retail, I loved mostly everything about the job, i loved the people, i loved talking comics with people and I also gained a perspective on comics I thought were “bad” by talking to the people who loved them and seeing their enthusiasm and why they liked them. What I didn’t like was the job part. Or maybe the company (rhymes with Mile High Comics) I left on bitter terms when it was implied that sales were dropping specifically because of me.. and not the housing recession we were in. And after that I stopped buying comics for the first time since 1993.
I would dip in and out occasionally. A new 52, a dc rebirth, one of the many marvel nows… things I liked things I didn’t. But personal tragedies pulled me away and made comics not fun.
I came back for Slott on Fantastic Four, Bendis coming to dc (and really because he brought Rucka on Lois lane and Fraction on Jimmy Olsen) and Hickman on X-men. And then the pandemic happened and comics became a thing to do, a cozy comfort.
I fully admit to staying in comics because of nostalgia. Waid at DC, Gail on X-men, you returning to mainstream comics. Priest returning to mainstream comics. Fraction doing Batman. Phil Jimenez coming to Wonder Woman and Donna Troy. Etc. I love everything Geoff Johns & Co are doing at image, redcoat is something special.
But then I’ve also found new books & new writers like Eve Ewing’s Exceptional X-men, which is genuinely one of the best comics I’ve ever read. I’ll read anything Mark Russel writes.
But then I’ve experienced things like reading the first “all-In” green lantern special… where no character is referred to at any point by name making me feel like I’m going insane by reading it.
As for the incoming audience, I run a creative writing nonprofit for kids, and yeah, they love the characters even the new characters (they prefer miles to peter), and while I see them occasionally reading a trade or something like a pride special, they’re mostly just talking about marvel rivals.
Another Gen-X-er who's on a downward curve when it comes to reading and enthusiasm. I think what did it for me was seeing through that illusory change. I get that every generation comes to these characters fresh, and that there maybe need to be consistent qualities to each, that Cap remains, fundamentally, Cap, or Superman Superman.
But I've seen a trend in Marvel of Jonathan Hickman 'ruining' long-running books for me by writing something big, bold, beautiful and transformative - FF (to an extent), then Avengers, and certainly the X-titles. After the (literally and figuratively) world-shattering events of the Secret Wars build-up, or the complete reinvention of Krakoa, I couldn't go back.
I know new readers need a team that resembles the movies, or who at least aren't as morally-compromised or broken as the characters who tend to come out of the other side of runs like these, but I'm not in it for the nostalgia. I don't want the comics to feel like they did when I was a kid. I want them to grow with me. And they can't. Not if they have to serve the newer younger readers as well.
I'm loving some of the more niche titles (especially James Tynion IV's stuff), but they can't fill the hole. Nothing can. There's always something new worth a look (Ryan North's Squirrel Girl and FF?), but I can't buy into the world/big picture any more. It's been reset just too many times.
I think the average quality is as good as it ever was (if not better tbh), but there are only so many times these fundamentally similar rides can continue to entertain.
Even when I was a teen in the late 80's/90's, there were plenty of new characters/titles at the Big Two - New Warriors, Darkhawk, Sleepwalker, Guardians of the Galaxy, Lobo, Suicide Squad, Checkmate, Damage, the entire litany of Vertigo books - most didn't last a particularly long time, but they were always dropping, and not just legacy reboots or next gen versions of classic characters, but authentically new characters and titles, even though that practice was well on the wane in the 90's, in favor of the growing nostalgia train. We need brand new ideas that are given the time to take hold as new mainstays for new generations. That's going to take commitment, investment, and a certain amount of faith. Excitment in backing new ideas even if there's no obvious payoff right around the corner.
Just like with film and tv - you can only milk old IP for so long. It'll always make a certain amount of money, keep the train chugging in place, but the next HUGE thing is always something new, something unexpected. Something seemingly risky, precisely because it's new.
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. But to add, and it seems so silly, but I feel like a something really important broke when the core legacy titles were renumbered. And then renumbered over and over and over again. Prior to that happening, it felt like you were connected to something “real” that you could latch onto history in a way and channel that. It made SENSE. When that broke, to me it felt like things just fragmented into nonsense. (I mean there were a zillion other missteps that contributed to that but I don’t think you can underestimate the restarts).
And another aspect that was lost because of that was the creator hand off of new blood coming onto a title - picking up the baton of the team that came before. And then to see that team or creator go to another book and do the same. Remember what that was like??? It was magic!
Oh and add the wrinkle to that of the writer staying on and the new penciler coming aboard. And you braced yourself for disaster….. but the voice of the characters and the story remained consistent. And then the new penciler turned out to be pretty good. And then a few issues passed and the new penciler ended up actually being BETTER. And things were refreshed. And it all added on top of itself. It built and magnified and it was all such a pure freaking JOY to behold. It’s hard to put it into words but, if you were there experiencing it in real time, you know exactly what I’m talking about.
I have a different thought: We lost generations of new comic book readers because of the end of smoking in the US.
Allow me to explain.
I was born in 1970. From the age of 5 or 6 to 13 or so, I bought my comics at 7-11. We had one or two comic stores in the area, but the one was pretty terrible and unfriendly, and the other was in a mall and really loud.
I got money to buy comics when my parents decided they wanted cigarettes. I'd get on my bike, go to 7-11, and buy them cigarettes, and use the change (with their permission) to buy comics. 7-11s were amazing gateways to popular culture for kids in the 80s- arcade machines, magazines, and comic books. Add a Slurpee or Big Gulp, and that was a good afternoon.
But most Americans don't smoke anymore, and if they do, they buy their smokes at stores that don't sell comics. You have to go to a specialty comics shop to buy comics. Most are excellent, but a bad one can put off a whole town of readers. And kids like their iPhones, so the most likely place they'll see a comic is on their screen, and Amazon Kindle and Marvel Unlimited and DC Universe need some shaping up.
Even if this theory holds any truth - I'm okay with the trade off. I love comics, but entertainment is never worth people's lives in exchange for the profit of giant corporations, both those of tobacco and comics.
Thank you for posting this, as a Gen-X reader, there was an over reliance in the 00s on cross-over events combined with an over-saturation of 5 or more books with “X, Bats, Spidey, Supes” in the title as well as the price point. The 80s boomer Big 2 books were more complex and took bigger risks creatively and catered to more sophisticated kids. 80s Uncanny X-men had a highly complex mythology. Likewise for DC’s Titans and Legion. There are always outliers, like the Krakatoan X-verse, but runs are shorter nowadays and less creative. Like Star Wars, a lot of comic content services the base audience without creating something special.
That’s true for independent books. I just don’t see the Big 2 taking creative risks like they used to with mainstream characters. Like Busiek/Ross “Marvels” or publishing another Batman “Death in the Family.”
I do agree that the 'singular' vision of a long term writer on some comic runs helped build a bigger and cooler mythology (17 years on Xmen titles for Claremont, 15 years of Wolfman on the Titans, 10 years of Levitz on Legion books..and more). I think something was lost there.
Although you do see it a bit here and there as creators like Jim Zub on Conan is signed up for 50+ issues and of course the creator owned books like Walking Dead, Saga, etc.
I'm glad you clarified that it's specifically Marvel and DC superhero books you're talking about here. I would argue that the content of comics in general is better now than it ever has been. This last few months have brought several -capital "G"-great new comics properties from Image that I feel very excited about. I've shared these books with my kids, and they are excited to buy these books, too. Comics in general, great. Marvel and DC superhero books? Not so much.
I definitely fall into the gen x category you mentioned. It's interesting that you gave Civil War as an example. That is exactly where and when I lost interest in Marvel altogether. I am one of those readers that feels "I've seen it all," and I'm bored. But honestly more than anything my budget cannot handle line-wide crossovers. No thanks, I'll pass. Since comics are 4 or 5 bucks or more each, I'm pretty limited on how many I buy. Buy 5 Batman books, or x men books, or whatever in a week or month? Again, no thanks, I'll pass.
Comics’ bang for the buck is pretty low: yes or no?
The Big 2 look like something of a dying ouroboros. But what’s going on outside the Big 2 with independents? I see companies cranking out stuff that you know are selling in the smallest amounts possible and they stay in business somehow. Or maybe they stay in business by LCS’ orders—and the LCS’ mis-ordering, so to speak, has put Diamond not just into bankruptcy but into a bizarrely messy one. I mean, the funniest business is just insane.
And then there’s the issue that being a comics artist is no way to make living.
And then there’s the creativity issue. I’m not talking issue to issue, but high concept stuff. OTOH, I’m a child of peak Kirby.
I made the mistake of working comics retail, I loved mostly everything about the job, i loved the people, i loved talking comics with people and I also gained a perspective on comics I thought were “bad” by talking to the people who loved them and seeing their enthusiasm and why they liked them. What I didn’t like was the job part. Or maybe the company (rhymes with Mile High Comics) I left on bitter terms when it was implied that sales were dropping specifically because of me.. and not the housing recession we were in. And after that I stopped buying comics for the first time since 1993.
I would dip in and out occasionally. A new 52, a dc rebirth, one of the many marvel nows… things I liked things I didn’t. But personal tragedies pulled me away and made comics not fun.
I came back for Slott on Fantastic Four, Bendis coming to dc (and really because he brought Rucka on Lois lane and Fraction on Jimmy Olsen) and Hickman on X-men. And then the pandemic happened and comics became a thing to do, a cozy comfort.
I fully admit to staying in comics because of nostalgia. Waid at DC, Gail on X-men, you returning to mainstream comics. Priest returning to mainstream comics. Fraction doing Batman. Phil Jimenez coming to Wonder Woman and Donna Troy. Etc. I love everything Geoff Johns & Co are doing at image, redcoat is something special.
But then I’ve also found new books & new writers like Eve Ewing’s Exceptional X-men, which is genuinely one of the best comics I’ve ever read. I’ll read anything Mark Russel writes.
But then I’ve experienced things like reading the first “all-In” green lantern special… where no character is referred to at any point by name making me feel like I’m going insane by reading it.
As for the incoming audience, I run a creative writing nonprofit for kids, and yeah, they love the characters even the new characters (they prefer miles to peter), and while I see them occasionally reading a trade or something like a pride special, they’re mostly just talking about marvel rivals.
Oh this was too long.
Another Gen-X-er who's on a downward curve when it comes to reading and enthusiasm. I think what did it for me was seeing through that illusory change. I get that every generation comes to these characters fresh, and that there maybe need to be consistent qualities to each, that Cap remains, fundamentally, Cap, or Superman Superman.
But I've seen a trend in Marvel of Jonathan Hickman 'ruining' long-running books for me by writing something big, bold, beautiful and transformative - FF (to an extent), then Avengers, and certainly the X-titles. After the (literally and figuratively) world-shattering events of the Secret Wars build-up, or the complete reinvention of Krakoa, I couldn't go back.
I know new readers need a team that resembles the movies, or who at least aren't as morally-compromised or broken as the characters who tend to come out of the other side of runs like these, but I'm not in it for the nostalgia. I don't want the comics to feel like they did when I was a kid. I want them to grow with me. And they can't. Not if they have to serve the newer younger readers as well.
I'm loving some of the more niche titles (especially James Tynion IV's stuff), but they can't fill the hole. Nothing can. There's always something new worth a look (Ryan North's Squirrel Girl and FF?), but I can't buy into the world/big picture any more. It's been reset just too many times.
I think the average quality is as good as it ever was (if not better tbh), but there are only so many times these fundamentally similar rides can continue to entertain.
Even when I was a teen in the late 80's/90's, there were plenty of new characters/titles at the Big Two - New Warriors, Darkhawk, Sleepwalker, Guardians of the Galaxy, Lobo, Suicide Squad, Checkmate, Damage, the entire litany of Vertigo books - most didn't last a particularly long time, but they were always dropping, and not just legacy reboots or next gen versions of classic characters, but authentically new characters and titles, even though that practice was well on the wane in the 90's, in favor of the growing nostalgia train. We need brand new ideas that are given the time to take hold as new mainstays for new generations. That's going to take commitment, investment, and a certain amount of faith. Excitment in backing new ideas even if there's no obvious payoff right around the corner.
Just like with film and tv - you can only milk old IP for so long. It'll always make a certain amount of money, keep the train chugging in place, but the next HUGE thing is always something new, something unexpected. Something seemingly risky, precisely because it's new.
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. But to add, and it seems so silly, but I feel like a something really important broke when the core legacy titles were renumbered. And then renumbered over and over and over again. Prior to that happening, it felt like you were connected to something “real” that you could latch onto history in a way and channel that. It made SENSE. When that broke, to me it felt like things just fragmented into nonsense. (I mean there were a zillion other missteps that contributed to that but I don’t think you can underestimate the restarts).
And another aspect that was lost because of that was the creator hand off of new blood coming onto a title - picking up the baton of the team that came before. And then to see that team or creator go to another book and do the same. Remember what that was like??? It was magic!
And, sadly, the spell is broken.
Oh and add the wrinkle to that of the writer staying on and the new penciler coming aboard. And you braced yourself for disaster….. but the voice of the characters and the story remained consistent. And then the new penciler turned out to be pretty good. And then a few issues passed and the new penciler ended up actually being BETTER. And things were refreshed. And it all added on top of itself. It built and magnified and it was all such a pure freaking JOY to behold. It’s hard to put it into words but, if you were there experiencing it in real time, you know exactly what I’m talking about.
I have a different thought: We lost generations of new comic book readers because of the end of smoking in the US.
Allow me to explain.
I was born in 1970. From the age of 5 or 6 to 13 or so, I bought my comics at 7-11. We had one or two comic stores in the area, but the one was pretty terrible and unfriendly, and the other was in a mall and really loud.
I got money to buy comics when my parents decided they wanted cigarettes. I'd get on my bike, go to 7-11, and buy them cigarettes, and use the change (with their permission) to buy comics. 7-11s were amazing gateways to popular culture for kids in the 80s- arcade machines, magazines, and comic books. Add a Slurpee or Big Gulp, and that was a good afternoon.
But most Americans don't smoke anymore, and if they do, they buy their smokes at stores that don't sell comics. You have to go to a specialty comics shop to buy comics. Most are excellent, but a bad one can put off a whole town of readers. And kids like their iPhones, so the most likely place they'll see a comic is on their screen, and Amazon Kindle and Marvel Unlimited and DC Universe need some shaping up.
Even if this theory holds any truth - I'm okay with the trade off. I love comics, but entertainment is never worth people's lives in exchange for the profit of giant corporations, both those of tobacco and comics.
Thank you for posting this, as a Gen-X reader, there was an over reliance in the 00s on cross-over events combined with an over-saturation of 5 or more books with “X, Bats, Spidey, Supes” in the title as well as the price point. The 80s boomer Big 2 books were more complex and took bigger risks creatively and catered to more sophisticated kids. 80s Uncanny X-men had a highly complex mythology. Likewise for DC’s Titans and Legion. There are always outliers, like the Krakatoan X-verse, but runs are shorter nowadays and less creative. Like Star Wars, a lot of comic content services the base audience without creating something special.
That’s true for independent books. I just don’t see the Big 2 taking creative risks like they used to with mainstream characters. Like Busiek/Ross “Marvels” or publishing another Batman “Death in the Family.”
I do agree that the 'singular' vision of a long term writer on some comic runs helped build a bigger and cooler mythology (17 years on Xmen titles for Claremont, 15 years of Wolfman on the Titans, 10 years of Levitz on Legion books..and more). I think something was lost there.
Although you do see it a bit here and there as creators like Jim Zub on Conan is signed up for 50+ issues and of course the creator owned books like Walking Dead, Saga, etc.
I'm glad you clarified that it's specifically Marvel and DC superhero books you're talking about here. I would argue that the content of comics in general is better now than it ever has been. This last few months have brought several -capital "G"-great new comics properties from Image that I feel very excited about. I've shared these books with my kids, and they are excited to buy these books, too. Comics in general, great. Marvel and DC superhero books? Not so much.
I definitely fall into the gen x category you mentioned. It's interesting that you gave Civil War as an example. That is exactly where and when I lost interest in Marvel altogether. I am one of those readers that feels "I've seen it all," and I'm bored. But honestly more than anything my budget cannot handle line-wide crossovers. No thanks, I'll pass. Since comics are 4 or 5 bucks or more each, I'm pretty limited on how many I buy. Buy 5 Batman books, or x men books, or whatever in a week or month? Again, no thanks, I'll pass.
Exact same with me and Civil War — that was my breaking point.
Comics’ bang for the buck is pretty low: yes or no?
The Big 2 look like something of a dying ouroboros. But what’s going on outside the Big 2 with independents? I see companies cranking out stuff that you know are selling in the smallest amounts possible and they stay in business somehow. Or maybe they stay in business by LCS’ orders—and the LCS’ mis-ordering, so to speak, has put Diamond not just into bankruptcy but into a bizarrely messy one. I mean, the funniest business is just insane.
And then there’s the issue that being a comics artist is no way to make living.
And then there’s the creativity issue. I’m not talking issue to issue, but high concept stuff. OTOH, I’m a child of peak Kirby.
Did I say it’s a crazy business?